This is the first of two parts of an interview with Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Malala Yousafzai and the director of the Malala Fund Afghanistan Initiative Sahar Halaimzai, led by editor in chief of Rukhshana Media Zahra Joya.
Zahra Joya: Malala, you endured and fought against restrictions similar to those Afghan women and girls face now. How do you evaluate the effectiveness and impact of the last three years of Afghan women’s struggle, both inside and outside the country? What aspects have been most successful, and what strategies do you think could improve their impact?
Malala Yousafzai: I can say a lot about this. In the past three years the courage and the resilience of Afghan women have given me hope and it’s given many Afghan girls and women hope. It’s giving the country hope to see the incredible stories of the Afghan women activists who are putting their lives at risk to advocate and to fight for their rights.
I have seen footage of Afghan women protesting against the Taliban in front of them. Some of them have been put in prison, some of them have been beaten up and we have seen these horrible stories, how they face threats.
But these women are not giving up because they know that they do not have a future if they accept what the Taliban are saying right now. If they decide to live under it, there is no future for them, and we need to learn from them. We need to learn from their courage and resilience and be as brave as them and take their call forward.
That’s why I have made a commitment to my Afghan sisters that I will continue the fight and I will ask leaders to stand up with Afghan women and girls.
Sahar Halaimzai: I would like to add to that. I think one of the ways that we’re seeing the impact of the bravery of the women and girls in Afghanistan and refugee communities and those in exile is the fact that we’re having this conversation right now.
It’s the fact that the conversation, the debate, the push, the momentum around gender apartheid that is happening at all is because of those women who are brave enough to go and protest against the Taliban.
It is because of those women who are recording what is happening in their communities. It is because of those girls the Malala Fund is in touch with and supports thousands of girls across Afghanistan who talk to us all the time and tell us what is happening to them, but also how they’re resisting, and how they keep learning.
I think none of this work would be possible without those women and those girls and everything they’re doing is powerful. And in two years we’ve got to the point where over 10 member states are talking about the possibility of codifying gender apartheid.
I think that is real power.
Zahra Joya: Given the Taliban currently have a tight hold on power in Afghanistan, what future do you predict for Afghan women in the next few years, particularly as regards education?
Malala Yousafzai: I do carry optimism with me, and I would say that we are in a lucky time that we have technology and tools through which we can make education accessible to girls while they’re at home.
I always tell people that we need to think creatively when the Taliban are banning girls from school. What can we do to take education to their homes and make it much easier for girls to keep learning while they wait for their schools to be open?
We cannot give up on the fight to reopen schools, but we should be using these tools and technology that we have through Malala Fund. Sahar is the director of our Afghanistan initiative and she has done incredible work in finding those organizations in the country who are providing education to girls through radios and television and other digital platforms.
We need to keep girls learning. Through one of the organizations that we are supporting, we’re reaching up to one million young people and we hope that we can do more. And it’s thanks to the support that people are providing us, thanks to their donations, that it’s helping us do all of this work.
At the same time we’re supporting education activists outside the country as well as in the diaspora to help them in their campaign to hold a Taliban to account, to ask leaders to do more and to create a system of accountability, to recognize gender apartheid and to keep on building pressure to protect the women’s and girls’ rights in the country.
Zahra Joya: When the US first sent troops to Afghanistan in 2001, one of the arguments often made for the military campaign was that America was fighting for the rights of Afghan women. Why do we not hear more from people who made this argument — like former first Lady Laura Bush — now Afghan women face the same (or worse?) restrictions than in 2001?
Malala Yousafzai: In the past 20 years it was really the bravery and courage of Afghan women that changed things. Even with the limited resources, with the limited efforts, they fought really hard for their rights, their access to education, opportunities in work and politics and another in in other parts of life. Even in those past 20 years, we hear the stories of how brave and courageous they are. I think we need to applaud their activism for that.
And it’s true that, when you know the US intervened, when NATO intervened, everybody was talking about protecting women and girls, but today the exact opposite has happened where women’s rights are being taken backwards. The years or rather decades of progress have been lost. And I can understand the sense of betrayal that Afghan women feel.
When I look at it from the outside, I think this is not fair at all on the Afghan women. for me, it was never about the presence of the troops or should the troops have left or not.
For me, it was more about how they left and, and in what conditions they left Afghanistan. And how these foreign countries then turned away from Afghanistan. That they negotiated with the Taliban directly. They excluded women. And again, we see those things happening now.
So this is where we need to make a distinction that when we’re talking about the future of Afghanistan. Women have to be at the center. Women have to be included. And women’s rights, if the world says that it’s looking at it in a feminist way, and some countries say that they have feminist policies and they care about women’s and girls’ rights and they care about their daughters and they care about girls, then they need to show us.
Sahar Halaimzai: I think the US and all the countries that had presence in Afghanistan for 20 years have a distinct responsibility to the refugees who are escaping now because of what’s happening in Afghanistan and to the women they abandoned because of the withdrawal agreement that they signed.
They do have a distinct responsibility. But part of the work and the movement building we’re doing around gender apartheid, is to build a global movement of as many states and allies as possible, to say what is happening in Afghanistan is not acceptable, and to clearly signal to those brave women and girls that they’re not alone, that we are watching what is happening and we won’t abandon them.
Zahra Joya: Malala, if you were to send a message to Afghan women and girls through this conversation, what would it be?
Malala Yousafzai: I feel so lucky that I celebrated this Malala Day with Afghan girls in school in the UK. I met these incredible Afghan girls who shared their stories of resistance and courage and how passionate they are for their education, and they want to see further education and equal opportunities for their Afghan sisters.
I want to convey that message to all my Afghan sisters who are watching me from Afghanistan or any part of the world that I stand with you and I will continue to raise your voice at every platform and we will hold leaders to account to ensure that they protect your rights and they make no compromise in your future.
Zahra Joya: Do you have any message to female journalists especially my colleagues who are working in hiding in Afghanistan?
Malala Yousafzai: I want to send this message to all female journalists. I often remind people that my own story and activism was only possible because of journalists. The journalists who reached out to me, who covered my story on their camera, who helped me write my blog, who helped me write those articles.
So without your platforms, without the risk that you take, a lot of us are not able to convey our messages. Your work is so important because you’re bringing the stories of Afghan women and girls to the center, and you are helping people in the other part of the world connect to it, and I always remind people that at the center of activism is the stories. And the stories of these Afghan women and girls that keep us going.
Zahra Joya: Is there anything I haven’t asked about that is important for this discussion, or that you would like to say on this topic?
Malala Yousafzai: I would like to add one point and that is in the issue of Afghanistan, we have met so many people who often bring up this excuse that what’s happening in the country is because of culture and religion. And I have challenged that always.
I am a Muslim and I’m Pashtun and I do not accept any of that as part of my culture or religion. And that does not represent Afghanistan, either. Afghanistan is a very diverse country in terms of culture, in terms of traditions, in terms of history.
We cannot allow a group who is violating human rights to be excused in the name of culture or religion. There is a standard of human rights, and no person can use the excuse of religion and culture to get away with it. You cannot ban girls from education, you cannot stop women from work. You cannot be abusing, and you cannot be violating the human rights of a person and saying this is a cultural issue and this is a domestic issue.
These things cannot be excused. The Taliban cannot be using this excuse. There is a standard of human rights that everybody has to follow. And I want the women who are from those cultures and from that religion to be the representatives of that.
They’re defining what that culture truly means and they’re defining what that religion truly means, where they have their equal rights, and they have their independence while they’re still celebrating their culture and their religious identity as well.
Malala Yousafzai is an education activist and the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize laureate. She became an international symbol of the fight for girls’ education after she was shot in 2012 for opposing Taliban restrictions on female education in her home country of Pakistan.
Sahar Halaimzai is the director of the Malala Fund Afghanistan Initiative, which aims to raise global awareness of gender apartheid and strengthen networks of Afghan women activists and organisations.
