Habiba Sarabi was present at the negotiating table since the start of the intra-Afghan talks with the Taliban. She outlines where negotiations failed and offers a perspective that the Taliban was mostly stalling during talks.
Why has the Taliban failed to maintain its commitment to respect women’s rights?
The point I need to clarify is that unfortunately, the Taliban never had any commitment to the women of Afghanistan, the people, democracy, human rights, and these issues. Nor do they have it now.
Let’s divide the peace negotiations into two parts. The negotiations the Taliban had with the Americans, in which they had only four commitments.: the withdrawal of foreign forces, the start of intra-Afghan dialogue, and issues to ensure Afghanistan does not become a place for terrorism again. If there were details beyond these, they remained hidden from the perspective of the Afghan people.
They reached an agreement on these, and a memorandum of understanding was signed between the US envoy Mr Khalilzad and the Taliban’s Mullah Baradar.
However, regarding the intra-Afghan agreement, efforts were made to initiate negotiations. Teams from both sides were chosen, and eventually, those negotiations began. They went for a year, but we did not reach a conclusion. We spent a lot of time on procedural matters.
When we started, women’s rights was indeed one of the items on the agenda. However, we never started a discussion on it. The topics were discussed broadly, and overall, the agenda was agreed upon, but there was no specific discussion on the agenda items.
Why did discussions on these issues not take place? Was it because the time was not right, or was there a lack of interest?
Negotiations take a lot of time. We had created various items on the agenda. Both sides had many agenda items, but the situation in Afghanistan was such that the Taliban were advancing at the district and provincial levels, occupying security outposts every day. This was one of the issues that prevented discussions on agenda items.
On the other hand, the Taliban were not interested in negotiations. They mostly engaged in stalling tactics. Negotiation was a responsibility and a mission for the (Afghan government) Republic team. But unfortunately, for the Taliban, negotiation was not a mission or responsibility. Their families were in Doha, they had their jobs and businesses there. They would come for negotiations when they were idle. They used various excuses and stall tactics. Then with the events occurring in Afghanistan, there was not any opportunity for negotiations on agenda items.
You were the first female governor in the history of Afghanistan, and served as Minister of Women’s Affairs for a while. In your last mission in Afghanistan, you were part of the negotiating team for the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan with the Taliban. You had gone to defend women’s rights, but it didn’t happen. When you think back to those days, why wasn’t the necessary guarantee obtained from the Taliban regarding women’s rights?
This is something that I think is not only painful for me but also the people of Afghanistan. The fact that the guarantee wasn’t obtained was because the discussion never took place. I mean, the process that had begun didn’t yield results. There was no assurance whatsoever. Now, what could have existed is the treaty that the United States signed with the Taliban.
More than two years have passed since the fall of Afghanistan’s republic, and the Taliban have completely removed women from the public sphere. Now, from a women’s perspective, what do you think would have been the right strategy for safeguarding women’s rights during negotiations?
During the negotiations, it should have been essential that the Afghan Constitution be considered, especially the second part of the Constitution where citizenship rights are stipulated. Citizenship rights were a very important issue. Women and all ethnic groups of Afghanistan are considered citizens of Afghanistan. This was a very serious issue that should have been included in an agreement that was not signed. Unfortunately, the agreement wasn’t signed nor was serious assurance obtained.
Why have women’s rights defenders, human rights activists, and the international community been unable to break the deadlock on the plight of women under the shadow of the Taliban?
On the part of Afghan women, especially those inside Afghanistan, they’ve showed their courage and defended their dignity. They’ve remained dignified and proud and continued their struggle.
Those outside Afghanistan have also made efforts which are still ongoing at various levels, whether among decision-makers or within the United Nations and the Security Council.
As a group of five individuals, we are constantly in touch with the Security Council in the women’s rights section and carry out the necessary advocacy.
But the reason for the deadlock on Afghan women’s situation is because the Taliban have a rigid and inflexible mindset. With this mindset, they are in no way willing to engage in dialogue with others, be it Afghan women, the international community, or anyone outside the Taliban circle.
Another major problem is that other priorities emerged in the world, causing the international community’s attention to shift away from Afghanistan. Afghanistan was no longer a priority for the United States and the international community.
There are other pressing issues in the world, for example, the war in Ukraine erupted. Today, we also see the issue of Gaza.
Therefore, Afghanistan is not a priority for the international community anymore. Through discussions with decision-makers in the United States government, the Security Council, and the European Union, we have realized that the United States no longer wants to pursue military action in Afghanistan.
On the other hand, the Taliban are also not interested in dialogue and negotiation. They want to move forward with their rigid and frozen mindset – medieval thinking that does not want to engage with the world.
How do you describe women’s situation in Afghanistan?
The current situation of women in Afghanistan is clearly gender apartheid. Women have been excluded from all areas of urban, rural, economic, social, and cultural life. Women have been expelled from society, and systematic discrimination is rampant. This is a result of the Taliban’s mindset.
As a woman, you have faced the Taliban leaders in many negotiations. Considering their behavior towards you at that time, did you ever think they would embrace such a strongly misogynist political stance, or did you think that perhaps the Taliban had changed somewhat?
The Taliban demonstrated in the 1990s that they adhere to misogynistic ideologies. Some women, including myself, participated in intra-Afghan dialogues in 2019, which were held for the first time in Doha, Qatar, with the presence of Mr Khalilzad and some politicians from other countries. The idea was to show the people that the Taliban had changed. Some of my friends in the Republic shared this belief. However, when I saw the Taliban and observed their relationships, mindset, and actions, I believed that the Taliban had not changed.
During the negotiations, when I saw their behavior, I retained this belief. Their ideology, approach, and mindset displayed how misogynistic they were. Others tried to show that they had changed and wanted to convey that they ostensibly believed in women’s education. But I concluded that the Taliban had not changed.
The international community, led by the United States, claims that women’s rights is one of the main topics of discussion with the Taliban. In practice, is there such a concern or boundary?
In every discussion we’ve had with the international community and in diplomatic meetings regarding women’s rights, human rights, and especially the inclusivity of government – a government that’s not exclusive to one ethnicity – these issues are brought up, and they say, ‘We are committed’. However, whether they are committed or not, time will tell.
Different countries around the world have their agendas and strive to act according to them. But the fact that they have not yet recognized the Taliban officially is a positive sign.
Some countries have initiated a form of diplomatic relations under the name of embassy, consulate, or trade relations. This indicates that they have no commitment to women’s rights. Only their own agenda matters.
Another aspect of this story is the women inside Afghanistan. Since the start of Taliban rule, many women inside the country have stood up against the group, but they have been severely suppressed. For example, right now, there are women in Taliban prisons for peacefully protesting their rights. However, outside Afghanistan, there hasn’t been much noticeable activism from women’s rights activists. Why do you think that is?
This is an important question. Firstly, I salute and pay tribute to all the women who are inside Afghanistan and fighting. They truly live in difficult conditions and continue their struggle.
To all the women who are outside Afghanistan and are trying to convey the voice of women to the world, I also send greetings and congratulations to them, because this is not an easy task. Women who have left the country after the fall are still in limbo, including myself, who is by no means happy living in the West. For us, living in the West is hell. Migrants live in an unbalanced state. Perhaps you have heard the stories of these women.
Although many efforts have been made, one successful effort is the advocacy of women outside of Afghanistan. The United Nations has not yet given legitimacy to the Taliban, and the Taliban are still not recognized officially. We can say that this is the result of women’s advocacy and lobbying.
But why haven’t we achieved complete success or greater success than this? It’s because there is still distrust between those inside and outside Afghanistan. This is a natural issue because the conditions that women inside the country face are very different from the conditions of women outside Afghanistan.
Women inside feel that we have abandoned them, and they truly have the right to feel that way. Yes, this may have happened, but everyone has their personal life. Everyone left Afghanistan for a reason. This may not be acceptable to those inside Afghanistan, but if there is trust, it would be better. Because if women inside don’t have a voice, those outside will amplify their voices. Until their demands reach the ears of politicians, the Security Council, and the United Nations.
This mistrust might be one of the reasons we couldn’t achieve complete success, but this situation is changing. The more dialogue that takes place, the more contact we have with those inside Afghanistan, and an environment will be created for greater trust. This is a common practice worldwide.
If you agree that there hasn’t been any significant effort taken for Afghan women, what could have been done seriously outside Afghanistan against Taliban restrictions?
A series of efforts have been made. There are institutions that have tried to bring Afghan women together to fill the gaps that exist. We appreciate this. We are also among those who participate in these meetings and strive to unite these voices.
What is important is those outside Afghanistan should not compete with each other. Let’s not turn the issue of women into a competition. Let each of us hold a banner that represents Afghan women. Let each of us fight in our own place, to the best of our ability. The capabilities of each person should be appreciated. Let’s support each other. This is very important. The gaps that exist in one group should be filled by another group so that we can become a force and stand against the Taliban.
If we take off the political lens and talk more personally, when you hear the news updates each day about the Taliban’s new restrictions on women, how does it make you feel?
Women’s issue is not distant from politics. Unfortunately, it is a political one, and the Taliban have made it more political. The Taliban derive the most political benefit from the issue of women.
The news we hear from inside Afghanistan, not only about women but also youth, military personnel, minorities, mosque bombings in Shia mosques, and the destruction of educational centers, is like a dagger plunging into our hearts.
I can’t see more news. It’s very painful.
Are you still in contact with women inside Afghanistan, especially girls? What do they tell you?
Yes, I am in contact. Sometimes we have conversations. It’s hard to say what they say. They always talk about pain, deprivation, discrimination they face, about being excluded from society, about how much they suffer and what those who were in prison endured. It’s all very painful, but we must endure it.
How much do you miss Bamyan and interacting with women of that province, who have always been subject to more widespread deprivation and poverty?
Very much, there are many stories. These days I am reading a book written by a US Army officer named Richard Hull about Bamyan, and he describes the six months he spent there, almost every incident that happened is mentioned in his book. When I read this book, it takes me to Bamyan.
One of the narratives in the book is about a program in a remote area of Bamyan, where a woman came forward and introduced herself in English, welcoming him. How this commander was welcomed by women takes me back to Bamyan. I’ll share a couple of stories here that illustrate how one can play a role in the awareness and awakening of others.
On my days off, when my family wasn’t in Bamyan, I tried to both relax and learn about the people by traveling to various areas of Bamyan. I visited different villages. Once I went to Band-e Amir, where a group of young women gathered around me and were happy. I even noticed some bearded men standing further away, observing this scene.
Women said, ‘We have the right to stand before men, with our governor, and take a picture, while before we didn’t have such a right.’
In another narrative, a woman who had come to welcome us on our trip to Waras district of Bamyan was crying out of happiness and saying, ‘You have brought us to life.’ She was happy to see a fellow woman taking the lead. They felt that women could also lead.
Habiba Sarabi is a prominent political figure in Afghanistan. She served as Minister of Women’s Affairs under former president Hamid Karzai’s administration, and was the first female governor in the history of Afghanistan. She was a member of the negotiating team for peace talks with the Taliban in the previous Afghan government. These days she lives outside Afghanistan lobbying and striving to amplify the voice of Afghan women.
